on The Corporation, shareholder profit laws, Sicko, etc.

[Dalya]

today michael moore was on Oprah talking about Sicko (new movie about health insurance and how they deny payment to insured people, etc). anyway he specifically said that the law demands that all corporations maximize profit for their shareholders.

so... as for The Corporation lying... I don't think it was a lie at all, but dramatic phrasing.

Anyway I KNEW I'd learned about this. I'm too lazy to look up the law right now, but I will later. Anyway I doubt Michael Moore would say something like that on Oprah if it weren't true. He wasn't saying it to attack the insurance companies either, he was saying it in their defence. They HAVE to deny care to make a profit.

I don't really know what to think about health care anymore. I really really really dont think national health care is the answer, but I think there needs to be minimum requirements. Or maybe there should be national health care for trauma patients or patients with brain injuries.... the really expensive stuff, but not dental work. You shouldn't have to wait 6 months to get a cavity filled (like michael did).

Anyway... the movie looked pretty good. More educational and less entertaining than the past 2. And they showed a clip of an ex-insurance company executive testifying in supreme court, saying that by denying one man a life-saving operation she saved her company half a million dollars and got promoted. Basically admitting to killing someone and never being held accountable for it.

[zenmomma]

You shouldn't have to wait 6 months to get a cavity filled (like michael did)

I'm on NHS Dental. On the day of my first appointment, they found a cavity and asked me if I wanted it filled right there on the spot. So I had it done. I'm sure national health isn't perfect, but I like knowing that no matter what my financial situation is, I can still get medical treatment without having to take out a loan, put it on a credit card or go bankrupt.
It does seem like people do have very different experiences with waiting times, etc -- but I've never had any problems.

Someone very close to me spent pretty much all of their savings on health insurance while out of work and on disability. Because they have a chronic condition, they need health insurance. At one point I thought that the cost of health care could possibly leave them in a position of being able to afford either the mortgage payment OR health care, but not both.
They even applied for a local health care system that is subsidised but was told that they earned TOO MUCH money from disability, yes just a teensy weensy touch over the poverty line. Rediculous.

[zenmomma]

I'm too lazy to look up the law right now, but I will later.

I found an older article about it here: How Corporate Law Inhibits Social Responsibility

[Dalya]

I don't know... I just think money is a huge motivator when it comes to becoming a doctor. Any idea how much doctors in the UK get paid? I would never ever ever go through being a surgical intern (i.e. 30 hours of surgery with no sleep) unless I knew my finances would be taken care of later. Besides having to pay back student loans from 8 years of college to get a PhD. I do think that competition is a good thing when it comes to health providors because its important to have specialists who are recognized as being better than others and are therefore "worth more" or get paid more.

Maybe I need to research NHS more. My instinct is that nationalizing healthcare would make it easier to become a doctor because it would be less profitable and therefore less appealing... cue shortage or doctors and lowered standards. Has this happened at all in the UK or Canada or is it just the great American paranoia?

I do think that every person should be entitled to free healthcare when it comes to any kind of emergency procedure or life-threatening treatment (chemo, removal of brain tumor, spinal surgery, etc.)

However... I do have a problem with the idea of someone who smoked their whole life getting free chemo beside someone who never smoked.. both paid for by taxes. I know that sounds ass-holish but its true.

First of all, I do NOT trust the American government to provide me with the care I need at the quality I need. I feel like it would be worse than or equal to dealing with insurance companies... trying to convince them that you really do need your brain tumor removed TODAY. I'm not saying NHS is this way, but I think the US would be.

Then, I just forsee all kinds of problems with lifestyle choices. Will smoking be totally banned so the government doesnt have to pay for lung cancer treatment, emphysema, heart problems, etc? Will being obese become illegal?? Will diseases be treated if they're caused by illegal activity, such as heroin use?

It makes me brain hurt.

[squeezle]

I don't know... I just think money is a huge motivator when it comes to becoming a doctor. Any idea how much doctors in the UK get paid? I would never ever ever go through being a surgical intern (i.e. 30 hours of surgery with no sleep) unless I knew my finances would be taken care of later. Besides having to pay back student loans from 8 years of college to get a PhD. I do think that competition is a good thing when it comes to health providors because its important to have specialists who are recognized as being better than others and are therefore "worth more" or get paid more.

there is a lot more it than this - it is all caught up in the development of capitalimsm, social class, religion, and such. if you are to learn more about the history of western health care and why it is so expensive check out either

The birth of the clinic -Michele Foucault (a bit of a difficult read)
or
For her own good -Barbara Ehrenreich and Deirdre English (much easier to get into)
and i'm sure there are many others

[sam]

...(i.e. 30 hours of surgery with no sleep)...

This ethos is really starting to fascinate me as the evidence for sleep deprivation destroying performance at every level seems to be mountainous.

[katie]

While money is a motivating factor for going into many lines of work, I don't think that it's the key behind people becoming doctors. My sister just graduated medical school last week, and her intention is to help people who need it, not to sit back and live large with a big house, five cars, the rent charged. I'd like to believe that most people who have the gumption to stick through all the schooling and studying have a better motivating factor than cash. Most doctors go through a long period of being in debt before they get their loans paid off anyways.

That being said, it probably is a motivating factor for some doctors, I just don't feel like that's the norm in the situation.

[Dalya]

I don't think its the primary motivator. But it can be equal to the other motivators. If becoming a teacher was as hard as becoming a doctor, NOBODY would do it. Because you get paid nothing, which in our society means you're literally worth-less. (less than, not zero worth...) I know it has to do with our society, history, etc. But it's still true, at least for this generation. Maybe the next generation can grow up with a different attitude.

I know [almost] every person in med school wants to help people. I do, too, and that's why I'm thinking about doing pre-med. But it's also a fascination with the human body and science. And its also knowing that you will be appreciated and that you have a secure future. You have a necessary occupation. You'll never be outsourced.

Ok, and I have to say this. If I had a tumor on my spine, and my doctor was a money hungry piece of shit but he was the best surgeon in the US, I would gladly pay him more than a kind-hearted less experienced doctor. Whatever, get the fucking tumor off my spine. I don't care if he got so good by being a bad husband and replacing love with money. I'm just glad he can do the surgery...

So would those kinds of type-A workaholics still work as hard to become specialists if the government was paying them less? And would the government pay them less, or am I making a false assumption?

[sam]

...If I had a tumor on my spine...

Are you trying to tell us that you are benjamin linus?

[katie]

benjamin linus = <3.

[Dutch]

...If I had a tumor on my spine...

Are you trying to tell us that you are benjamin linus?

ahem...

**SPOILER WARNING**

[mere1975]

Huh? Have you missed this whole season, MT? He found out about the tumor at least 10-12 episodes ago. . .

- Mere "can't remember seasons of Lost because it's so sporadic, but the tumor was a while back" 1975

[Irock]

so... as for The Corporation lying... I don't think it was a lie at all, but dramatic phrasing.

It's a fine line. What I heard was a lie, others might have percieved it differently.

Anyway I doubt Michael Moore would say something like that on Oprah if it weren't true.

While what you said didn't sound like a lie to me, I don't doubt for a second that he would lie on TV. TV's paid for by lies; people lie on TV aaaall the time. Especially when they're selling something (i.e. a movie). Especially when they're political figures. And unless you mention a certain company who might consider it slander, they's very little motivation NOT to lie, if it helps you get you point across.

[Rubbs]

I don't think its the primary motivator. But it can be equal to the other motivators. If becoming a teacher was as hard as becoming a doctor, NOBODY would do it. Because you get paid nothing, which in our society means you're literally worth-less. (less than, not zero worth...) I know it has to do with our society, history, etc. But it's still true, at least for this generation. Maybe the next generation can grow up with a different attitude.

What exactly is the quantification of "getting paid nothing?" I find this to be flawed thinking or phrasing on several levels. Money seems to be such an important factor in your decision making...but yet you are critical of the same type of behavior elsewhere. It is very easy to live a comfortable life on a teacher's salary. (dependent upon what makes you feel comfortable...and the combination of values that lead to your peacefullness). Is this all a part of a carefully constructed ironic point being made? Or is your stated external problems with greed more likely a respresentation of your struggle with your own place in society.

[Rubbs]

oh and you should know this isn't an insult. The struggle of balancing self, society, and spirit is the definable part of life itself. It is our humanity that makes all of this so difficult...which gives validity to atheist and believers alike.