I know it's cliche to complain about this, BUT

[ifihadahifi]

Mr. J, as a former missionary and former pastor, I would be more likely to defend Rebecca's comments than yours.

Firstly, having been in the field, your comment "almost all charities around the world are Christian-based or were founded on a Christian mission" is off the mark. Christian charities have barely made a dent in the 10/40 window, an area dominated my Muslim charities and outreaches and there are many Buddhist charities through out Asia.

Christian charities (I should say non-proselytizing, mercy-ministries) throughout the world do much good. I loved my time in the field and wouldn't trade it for anything. But it is an underfunded minority of Christians that live out the principals we find in the new testament. That was one of the most frustrating aspects of the work.

I don't think Rebecca's comment was an insult in the least. If anything, they are a sharp criticism of a body of believers that have long been ignorant and apathetic. Re-read her comment. She hit the nail on the head.

[squeezle]

Firstly, having been in the field, your comment "almost all charities around the world are Christian-based or were founded on a Christian mission" is off the mark. Christian charities have barely made a dent in the 10/40 window, an area dominated my Muslim charities and outreaches and there are many Buddhist charities through out Asia.

you beat me to it! except mine was going to start "Having review much of the literature on NGOs and international health....."

[Rebecca]

Wouldn't it be nice if all the Christians who are spending their time "defending Christmas" actually did something worthwhile and Christian-like? Helping the needy? Feeding the poor? What would Jesus do?

Considering that almost all charities around the world (not including the US Government, mind you) are Christian-based or were founded on a Christian mission, I'd suggest you change your tune, because you are seriously misguided in this belief. And second of all, why do you assume that Christians cannot be concerned about something they see happening in modern culture AND be helpful to their fellow man?

As a Christian, this particular attitude pisses me off, because it highlights the ignorance and the apathy of a particular mindset and it stereotypes my faith. Now, my faith is strong enough where one's ignorance isn't going to shake my faith at all, but that doesn't mean I have to be silent about insults to it. I won't say that reading such a comment doesn't hurt me, though, because, well, that would be a lie.

I will not comment further on this; this subject is not up for debate.

I said "the Christians who are spending their time 'defending Christmas.'" Obviously, those people are different from some of the Christians I know who spend their time traveling back and forth from Mexico delivering building supplies for schools, or delivering meals to families who would otherwise go hungry, or collecting gifts for children in foster care.

It takes a lot of time and energy and funds to send out the silly "Christmas is Under Attack!" fliers that I got in the mail. All I'm saying is that it would be nice for those resources to go toward a more worthy cause.

[aquaphase]

I say ban Christmas. It offends me.

[Steveums]

I won't say that reading such a comment doesn't hurt me, though, because, well, that would be a lie.

you're such a pussy, joe

[Dalya]

ive only read the 1st page of threads so i'm sure i'm way behind. but to mr j: when people say merry christmas to me, i usually say happy hannukah. yes when people refer to december 25th there talking about christmas, but people in retail and resturants are commanded to start saying happy holidays before thanksgiving. i dont think its appropriate for someone to say merry christmas to me on december 2nd. and i'm sure jesus is punching himself in the face in heaven saying "my birthday is august 3rd you jack asses!!!"


in any case its stupid to assume everyone is christian, which you ARE doing when you wish every stranger you see a merry christmas. i like when people say happy holidays because i enjoy the holiday season. but on jesus' big day i'm gonna be at the movies and denny's with all the other jews, bored out of my mind. so no, i won't have a merry christmas. i never do.

[Dalya]

That being said, I DO think the "holiday tree" is a bit ridiculous. There's no such thing as a holiday menorah.

no but there's a hannukah bush and hannukah Harry.

dal "but only when we're making fun of or jealous of christians" ya

[Dalya]

too lazy to quote but mrj said: "Considering that almost all charities around the world (not including the US Government, mind you) are Christian-based or were founded on a Christian mission, I'd suggest you change your tune, because you are seriously misguided in this belief."

missions were originally used as ways to populate new territories (like america) and to "tame" civilizations or groups of people that were deemed savages by the western world primarily because they believed in more than one god.

and most of the christian charities perform there charity conditionally, as in you have to go to church or at least listen to a shpeal about christianity before you can get your bowl of soup. or in africa, all those save the children charities, your five pennies a day are alos paying for the conversion of all of those children to christianity. i dont think "building gods army" is legitimate charity work. i'm not saying that all the nuns living on missions in africa are consciously trying to "civilize" the wilf african children, but thats what they are doing.

christianity is also used, in capitalist societies, as a means to perpetuate capitalism by teaching the people on the bottom of the latter to peacefully accept their circumstances and that god will redeem them. thats why marx said religion is the opiate of the masses. because it gives poor people a false sense of security.

[ifihadahifi]

Dalya, I may agree to you to a certain extent on the early portuguese and spanish missions.

But the rest of your comments are very not true. Your painting with a very broad brush.

[lennon]

christianity is also used, in capitalist societies, as a means to perpetuate capitalism by teaching the people on the bottom of the latter to peacefully accept their circumstances and that god will redeem them. thats why marx said religion is the opiate of the masses. because it gives poor people a false sense of security.

this is a heavily loaded series of statements indicting all of christianity. thanks dalya, i am thinking way too much for 8am.
i will write more once the caffeine kicks in.

i have tired head.

[Dalya]

i'm not saying that an average christian thinks "oh i'm gonna convert my friend, because then they won't rise up against me in a people's rebellion" but i think when a country has a state religion, like england or spain or france did, the spread of religion was used as a way to ensure the new colonies didnt revolt.

example: the attempts at converting native americans on spanish missions to prevent uprisings.

example: christianity played a huge roll in preventing slave rebellions in america. slave owners often taught one slave how to read and allowed him to be ... shit i forgot the correct word. i want to say a slave pastor or preacher? in any case, that slave would teach all the other slaves about christianity but the rest werent taught to read.

here as an example of what i mean when i say a peaceful christian charity hurting a people by converting them: pre american revolution the puritans created "praying towns" which were christian villages that indians could escape to if their tribe was attacked. of course they were converted (or exhorted to convert) when they went there.

"While Eliot seems to have been genuine in his attempt to save the Indians [4] , Neal Salisbury points out that his bankrollers in Boston had different reasons for supporting his endeavors. They believed that the praying towns could serve as a control mechanism to keep Indians out of Puritan affairs. It is important to note, as Salisbury does, that praying towns never preceded Puritan settlements (Salisbury, 34-5). Rather, they were established in the wake of Puritan arrival and gathered remaining Indians onto specific parcels of land to free space for Puritans to use (Salisbury, 34-5)."

ok? so John Eliot obviously really wanted to help the Native Americans, but the people who supported him wanted their land. The tribes often went there temporarily to escape war, but obviously when they returned to "their" land (the huntings grounds they used) it was often occupied by colonists.

christianity = good on paper. in practice, the conversion of people to christianity is often for economic reasons. i think if an organization truly wants to help people, they will help them without strings attached.

obviously there are MANY christian organizations that do good AND it is probably better that a person be converted and have something to eat than die (maybe)... but the bigger organizations and the bigger historical conversions/attempts at conversions dont have purely moral motives.

as far as christianity keeping people poor--i stand by that. look at south america. in cuba they had they become communist to revolt, because as a christian you can't legitimately wage a rebellion just because you're poor. you're supposed to be peaceful and you'll be rewarded when you meet god in heaven... or maybe you are you just being a sucker and you don't realize that even if TOTAL socio-political equality isnt possible, more equality is certainly possible than what is happening in mexico for example.

or... america, perhaps. the middle class is slowly dissapearing. and look how religion is used in america to sway votes. american christians are completely taken advantage of and lied to. they're voting for people who are making them poorer and who wont help them if they get so poor they lose their house (which does happen, not all homeless peopleare lazy drug addicts).

sorry if my post last night offended anyway, i was tired and too lazy to back up my statements.

i could go on forever. sorry so long.





source: https://www8.georgetown.edu/centers/cnd ... terID=3408

[lennon]

no offense taken dalya. i have been a christian my entire life and find it very hard to defend christians and their actions throughout history. who could forget the crusades.

i do find it offensive when present day 'christians' and/or televangelists take advantage of the less fortunate and the poor by telling them they must send in their money to get closer to god and that god will return the money to them ten fold. thats not christianity, thats a crook and a con artist.

if anyone wants to see the good work churches and in turn christians can do, in this case with the downtown homeless, check out these websites:


www.ccsdallas.org (sponsored by first united methodist dallas, my church)
www.presbyterians.org/stewpot (sponsored by first presbyterian dallas)

[Dogatron]

[quote="lennon"] who could forget the crusades.
quote]

"I've heard people say they're worried that the new pope used to be a nazi...but then when you put the christian and the nazi records side by side, the nazis only had a dozen years...the christians had way more time and have a much higher body count...I'd be more worried if I heard someone say "yeah, see that nazi...he used to be a pope"

[Dalya]

christians are less likely to kill me, since jesus was my "homeboy" as urban outfitters would say, therefore i like christians better than nazis.

i was at target today and despite how early it is, i still enjoy all the christmas shit. some of the ornaments are so pretty. and i have always loved going to look at christmas lights.

[KathrynTheGreat]

Slightly unrelated: I got a flyer in the mail (I get lots of conservative mailings since I moved) about "defending Christmas from the liberal media." It encouraged me to send REAL Christmas cards and to not say "Happy Holidays." They were selling Christmas cards with Santa dressed as a soldier (complete with candy cane sword) and ribbon car magnets that said "Merry Christmas: Preserve, Defend, and Protect." I got a good five minutes of laughter out of it. People who try to protect the meaning of Christmas from commercialism should just give up. That battle was lost a long time ago.

THIS JUST IN:

Al Franken, liberal bigwig and author of New York Times Bestseller "Lies and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them," was brought into custody last night after confessing to the murder of America's favorite red nosed reindeer. Rudolph, last seen at Santa's Workshop, had been missing for several days when his corpse was found laying in the middle of a dirt road. The original police report stated that Rudolph had been run over by a car, but upon examination the coroner determined that Rudolph was, in fact, poisoned. It didn't take long for the accusations against Franken to arise after his highly publicized feud with Rudolph only several weeks prior to the famous reindeer's slaying. Franken, who was a key leader in The War On Christmas movement, denied at the time that there was any sort of a rift despite the footage shot by a paparazzo which surfaced on the internet and revealed him repeatedly biting Rudolph's leg in the alley of a Dairy Queen. Many speculated that Rudolph blamed the outspoken liberal for his sudden fall from fame after children stopped believing in Christmas because of the repeated use of the phrase "Happy Holidays" by the liberal media. This led the reindeer into a downwards spiral of self-destruction, turning to a life of crime to support his heroin addiction on top of relapsing back into bulimia, a disease that Santa's little helper had struggled with during his low self-esteemed adolesence. It was after all of this had unfolded that Muskogee County Maintenence was called out to scrape a particularly large deer off the road. Franken issued a statement early this morning from prison, "Of course I did it. Someone had to. The whole 'Christmas' thing was getting out of hand. And you know what? I'm glad I did. It sends a message to all the conservatives out there that The War On Christmas is here. Tiny Tim had better watch his back. Enjoyable Secular Nonsectarian Humanist Winter Celebration to you, pal."